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Technology: Taking Back Control

Steve Seid & Kurt Dupuis
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The Whole Truth Podcast Episode 18

Steve Seid:
And welcome everybody to The Whole Truth in the Bay area, California. I am Steve Seid.

Kurt Dupuis:
And on a beautiful sunny day here in Atlanta, Georgia, I'm Kurt Dupuis.

Steve Seid:
Is it beautiful today?

Kurt Dupuis:
It's 60 and sunny, not a cloud in the sky. Tough to be mad about that.

Steve Seid:
That's true.

Disclosure:
The views expressed herein are those of the participants and not those of Touchstone Investments.

Kurt Dupuis:
Seid, I want to throw something out at you. There's a lot of A type personalities drawn to financial services and I know a lot of folks we work with are pretty A type, which lends itself to being obsessed with things. We don't limp in too much. And I want to tell you about something I'm a little obsessed about and get your take on it.

Steve Seid:
Yeah.

Kurt Dupuis:
So we can call this segment, what are you obsessed about this week? Because this obsession may only last this week. A buddy lent me an electric chainsaw, a battery powered, 60 volt electric chainsaw. So I got to cut down some brush, which was great dirt therapy, but I've always been a combustible guy, but I'm wondering, are we at the point where this technology is legit? You see these advertised all the time like electric lawnmowers, electric blowers, now chainsaws, apparently electric. Have you ever messed with any of this?

Steve Seid:
Well, first of all, let me just say it sounds super satisfying to do work with a chainsaw, I don't know that I ever have. That must be-

Kurt Dupuis:
Oh, it's amazing therapy.

Steve Seid:
It must be great, right?

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah.

Steve Seid:
So well, you tell me, how was the experience? Did it behave the way that you expected it to behave? How did it operate?

Kurt Dupuis:
I would dare say it was better than a gas chainsaw, particularly for what I was doing, which was brush and not trees, so thinner branches, but a lot of them. It starts and stops on a dime because it's electric. So that was awesome. And I like to tinker, so I mean, I could cut eight or 10 inch branches with this thing.

Steve Seid:
Nice.

Kurt Dupuis:
So for my purposes, it's ample power.

Steve Seid:
For people who are listening, who don't, or aren't really interested in working around the house, they're probably like, what are these idiots talking about? But that sounds-

Kurt Dupuis:
What else have you been doing during COVID if not working around the house?

Steve Seid:
Yeah, that sounds like the most satisfying thing. I'm not really handy, but I love working around the yard and doing stuff like that. So that just sounds like heaven to me, what you're describing. I think I'm going to buy that, yeah.

Kurt Dupuis:
You should. I've used two electric things from this company now and both vastly surpassed my expectations, because I just always had electric ... I'm just a combustible guy. I grew up cutting grass and I always had gas in the tank not some-

Steve Seid:
I love how you call yourself a combustible guy. That's a good one.

Kurt Dupuis:
Many meanings to that.

Steve Seid:
So what's the brand? What was the brand? Did you say that?

Kurt Dupuis:
Greenworks.

Steve Seid:
Greenworks. Okay. Cool. All right, there’s a plug for Greenworks.

Kurt Dupuis:
So I now have used a tiller and a chainsaw by this company and they are pretty stellar.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. Do you have a big yard down there in Atlanta?

Kurt Dupuis:
I got a third of an acre.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. We've got small plots in Northern Cal, but I've got enough where it's not too big so it's just enough to handle. All right, you want to hear what I've been obsessed with? This is going to be coming out of the blue.

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah.

Steve Seid:
Cults. I've been obsessed with cults. And let me tell you what I mean.

Kurt Dupuis:
Oh nice light topic.

Steve Seid:
Yeah, cults. Never really been obsessed with cults. Have you seen this show The Vow on HBO?

Kurt Dupuis:
I have not.

Steve Seid:
Okay. So you and everyone in your audience need to go on HBO and start watching The Vow. It is awesome. So basically the background is this, there's this cult guy and obviously the people that were in it didn't think it was a cult. But one of the guys that joined was this filmmaker, he's a documentary filmmaker and they brought him in to film because the cult was getting bad press. And so, it was to bring in to show how good they were, but he actually ended up going, holy cow, this is crazy and releasing this whole thing. And you are literally inside the belly of a cult. It is awesome.

Kurt Dupuis:
What's the show called?

Steve Seid:
It's called The Vow. Vow.

Kurt Dupuis:
V-O-W-E-L?

Steve Seid:
No, no vow, V-O-W. The Vow.

Kurt Dupuis:
Oh Vow, Vow.

Steve Seid:
Yeah, yeah.

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah. Okay.

Steve Seid:
So check that out. That's really cool. I'm three quarters  of the way and I'm already depressed that it's going to be over and I'm not going see it anymore.

Kurt Dupuis:
Oh, that sounds like it'd be interesting. Am I wrong, is it crazy to say that I'm almost jealous with how charismatic cult leaders are?

Steve Seid:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Kurt Dupuis:
Probably not a right thing to say, but people love them. People that love them, love them. People that hate them, love them. It's like they just have this supernatural power about them. You can ...

Steve Seid:
Well, it's interesting, and you'll see, there's celebrities that are in this thing and it's just what you come away thinking is that, everyone is just, is searching for stuff. No one is really content. And so, if you have some-

Kurt Dupuis:
Deep human need.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. You have somebody that comes along that's like, hey, I can make your life better and you're charismatic. I mean, people are searching for that. So it's really, really good. And then why say cults with an S, is I'm also reading one of ... I just absolutely love this book. So a member of our community, Paul M., he's in San Francisco. I guess if you're in San Francisco, you probably know Paul, everyone knows Paul. But I'm reading books on San Francisco. History of San Francisco and there's this incredible book called Season of the Witch. And even if you don't live in San Francisco, it's that good of a book that you should read it.

Steve Seid:
So it's essentially like post '60 San Francisco after the summer of love concludes, all this terrible, horrible stuff happens including Charles Manson and all kinds of stuff that happens in the city. It's crazy. And one of them was this guy, Jim Jones, who ends up, I guess it's not spoiling for anybody who wants to see it, but he was this cult leader that came in here, got involved in politics. Long story short, he ends up fleeing to South America with his flock and they end up all exiting the heaven together, let's put it that way. So it just struck me as I'm reading this book and that's just a part of the book, but I was watching this Vow documentary about cults then I'm reading this book about cults, that it's like, well, I'm spending a lot of time with cults recently. So both highly recommend, really, really good stuff.

Kurt Dupuis:
If I see you start chanting mantras soon, I'm going to have to call and give you a gut check, make sure you're not falling into a cult.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. And actually wasn't there another one, there was another one on Netflix recently about David Koresh. Did you see that one?

Kurt Dupuis:
There was. I started watching it, didn't get into it. 

Steve Seid:
That one was great too.

Kurt Dupuis:
Was it?

Steve Seid:
I was like, oh, awesome.

Kurt Dupuis:
Maybe I need to give it another try.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. All right, let's jump into it. You want to get into the episode?

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah, excited about this one. So we're going to talk about a big issue that everyone faces, and that's technology. So what we're going to do in today's show is give a brief overview of this documentary called The Social Dilemma. You may have watched it. You've definitely heard people talking about it, and talk about some of the ways that technology is really screwed up. But most importantly, because we like takeaways, we're going to talk about a couple of really cool resources that we found that give you tools and equip you to take back technology and put it on your own terms. So that's what we're going to cover today.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. And if we think back for those who haven't listened to the episode with Jerod Morris, go back and do it. One of the things he talked about in that episode was about protecting your attention. And the most productive employees today are not necessarily the people that have had the best education and the best experience, are the people that have the ability to protect their intention and focus on getting things done. Technology's whole focus now today is to grab ... Our attention is what they are selling to advertisers.

Kurt Dupuis:
That's the product.

Steve Seid:
That's their business model. And so, we're not here to rant and talk about the evils of Facebook. I certainly have an opinion on that, but.

Kurt Dupuis:
There's plenty of outlets for that.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. I mean, definitely watch The Social Dilemma. But the point is this is the world we're living in, what can you do to be more productive next year, make this part of your plan? We're going to get meaningfully more productive as a business leader, running these practices and as how we manage our employees.

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah. And it's especially pertinent now because we're still working from home. The vast majority of Americans are working from home. So we're actually surrounded by more technology on any given minute than we ever have before. So really timely. So it'll be a good discussion, and again, some really cool takeaways that we should have at the end.

Steve Seid:
Okay, great. So we're going to come back shortly and jump right into it. This is The Whole Truth, stick with us.

Kurt Dupuis:
I want to set the scene. There's an organization called The Center for Humane Technology. My first interaction with this company was probably three years ago where I think it was an advertisement on TV or a commercial somewhere that really sparked my interest. And it's a guy reading a poem with a bunch of cool graphics and whatever. So you just have to Google it, it's called, The Panda Is Dancing, Time Well Spent.

Steve Seid:
The Panda Is Dancing, Time Well Spent. Okay.

Kurt Dupuis:
We can hopefully figure out a way to maybe put this in the show notes, make it clickable for everybody. But it's a two minute video of talking how technology could be better. Rather than competing for our attention, it could help us to facilitate real world human interactions that are valuable and make us happier and make us better people. So I remember hearing about that organization, The Center for Humane Technology, a number of years ago by this little commercial poem thing that was very captivating. And so, when I found out that they were behind The Social Dilemma, I was like, well, I have to watch this.

Kurt Dupuis:
And since we have a newborn, when I was watching it with my wife, she fell asleep a couple of times. So I've actually got the benefit of seeing it many times now and I'm just really been taken back by how much control these companies have over our lives. So before I keep ranting, I want to read a quote from Tristan Harris who is one of the founders of The Center for Humane Technology, and then I want to get your take because I know you've watched The Social Dilemma recently. So the quote is, the problem with humanity is we have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and God-like technology.

Steve Seid:
Wow.

Kurt Dupuis:
So you just watched it Seid, so what's your take on Social Dilemma?

Steve Seid:
It's hard not to look around in the world and see a lot of the negative effects that some of these social media companies are having on the world, which are tangible. We're probably going to get into a point where they're likely to be regulated, but then you go, okay, well, once that's regulated, then the next one pops up and it's like, almost like Napster and Spotify, it's almost like it's probably here to stay. But yeah, I mean, I'm troubled by misinformation that goes through these social networks.

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah, and it's proven that that spreads faster than factual information, which is, I mean, how do you put the genie back in the bottle with that?

Steve Seid:
That's clearly problematic, but also I think the big takeaway from the documentary was just what we said in the first part, their whole focus is selling your attention. So we are the product, we say, oh, we use Facebook for free. No, nothing's for free. We are the product. And what they're selling is our attention. So it is designed to keep you there longer. And if we can get more and more of your attention, then that space becomes more and more value to advertisers, who cares what the effect is on society? And I guess you just put those two things together. You put in the misinformation, and then you also talk about the negative effects of constantly staring at these social media sites.

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah, the physiological aspects.

Steve Seid:
There's potential for immense harm here. And again, I promised I wouldn't rant and here I am doing it. I think all that aside, the question is, okay, what do you actually do about it? And that's what we want to get into today. It's like, this is our world, but knowing that, that is the case that even if you don't agree with us or me that it's a negative impact to society, I'm sure you agree that it's hurting productivity. So what can we actually do about that?

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah. And that's what we're going to focus on is the productivity side, because you do have to net the good and the bad, right? There have also been cases of Facebook helping match organ donors and find long lost loved ones.

Steve Seid:
They always use that example, though. That's the one.

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah, because it's happened three times, but they use it as a great anecdote. I think most people would agree, at least directionally that technology, it's easy for technology to overwhelm our lives. So what we're going to get into is talking about how you take back control. So we each found a couple of really good pieces that give really practical advice on that. So we're going to talk about that and share those ideas. So are you going to go first, Seid?

Steve Seid:
Yeah. So mine is from Harvard Business Review. I looked at a few of them, but this one's five ways to counteract your smartphone addiction, which tends to be one of the big ones. And I'll just read through these five, and you tell me Kurt, if you think that these are BS or something that our community should use, and us. and us.

Kurt Dupuis:
I think this says something too, that you're getting one from HBR and I pulled up mine from Reddit.

Steve Seid:
That's right. That is good observation, I like it.

Kurt Dupuis:
True, not true.

Steve Seid:
Okay. So this says, use CC and reply all judiciously. Group emails while helpful for team collaboration are an increasingly problematic workplace distraction. When most messages could be directed to just one or two people, rather than everyone, these chains start to feel oppressive, adding extraneous content to our already overflowing inboxes. Yay or nay?

Kurt Dupuis:
Love this one.

Steve Seid:
Love it, absolutely.

Kurt Dupuis:
Love this one because I hate being that guy that's CC'd, I have nothing to do with this conversation and I just want someone to tell me what the final result at the end is. I don't need to be part of the 24 emails that go in between. But this is not exclusive to email, text messages have this same disruptive capability where you're actually not sharing any information. So whether it's text messages or Snapchat or email, just be cognizant of who the audience is.

Steve Seid:
A lot of people are at that point, especially financial professionals that are like, I've got too many emails, I'll just look at them and choose the ones that I want. Get to a point where your inbox is manageable. How do you do that? You unsubscribe.

Steve Seid:
When people reach out to you that you don't want, just say, hey, listen, I'm in the process of trying to keep my inbox orderly. Don't take offense to it, but I don't want emails. Digressing to my coaching a little bit, a lot of times what we're trying to do in these businesses is make people more efficient. And sometimes what I'll hear is, oh, let's just CC each other on the things that we're doing. That's not efficient. I always push back on that because-

Kurt Dupuis:
It's not universally efficient.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. Okay. So we, Kurt and I both universally agree with item one. So let's get to item two, recalibrate response time expectations. Not too long ago, people worked from nine to five after which they were done for the evening, today, typical work days can stretch for nine hours in the office and far into the night only to start again the moment we awake. When colleagues email, text, or message us in some other way, no matter the time, an immediate response is in many cases an unspoken expectation. I see you nodding, so I assume you're going to agree.

Kurt Dupuis:
We've had some internal emails that we're both on, where you send the response, like, hey, I'll have this for you shortly don't send that response, just send the response when you have the information readily available, I think what's important there is just what the point says is recalibrating response time expectations, you got to be on the same page and not expect people to immediately turn around emails.

Steve Seid:
If you're a team, how can you do this? I think a good point to get to is if you're sending things after hours, make sure that they're really important. Don't just send anything. There are times where we're going to need response times late at night, but make those the exception and the important items rather than the rule.

Kurt Dupuis:
Well, I think a good way to build this into a team is you have a scribe on the team that documents a certain topic that you can talk about at your weekly huddle. So those points get aggregated when everyone's together live in person or virtually, but at the same ... Well, you can hammer through all of these questions or issues or topics rather than just having this never-ending cascade of emails and just address them all at one bulk time.

Steve Seid:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, next one, take regular restorative breaks. The human brain is not designed to work for hours on end. We perform better when we take breaks. For example, in one study for more than 12,000 white collar employees, those who turned away from work for every 90 minutes reported 30% higher level of focus, 50% greater capacity to think creatively and 46% higher level of health compared with peers who took no breaks or just one during the workday. But staring into a smartphone or browsing the internet, doesn't really count. You see where they're getting? You're sitting there focusing on your work, all of a sudden you take a break and immediately the smartphone comes open and you're looking at emails and you're reading articles and hard habit to break really hard habit to break. But what's your thought on that?

Kurt Dupuis:
Well, I always love those studies that come out of France and Denmark of how they're only working 30 hours a week, but yet somehow they're more productive than working 40. And I don't know the science or the empirical studies behind this, but it feels right, right? If you're having highly focused time that's more productive than less focused time, first of all, you only have you have capacity constraints. Secondly, you'll get more done. I mean, how many times during COVID do you just step in your office and the whole day goes by and you think, what did I accomplish today?

Kurt Dupuis:
So we've talked about time blocking before and prioritizing tasks and blocking off the time for those tasks, all that stuff is really important. And really at the end of the day, anything that says, yeah, I can work less and still do more, I'm in.

Steve Seid:
The things that are jumping on my mind of how you would do this is the importance of things like exercise and meditation. What can you do to build into your schedule where you're not going to have the phone open during that time? And maybe when you're exercising, I mean, I'm really bad at this. I always have my headphones in, maybe once or twice a week when I'm doing that exercise, I don't plug the earphones in and I'm just on my own. I guess, building in time to your schedule where there's a time where it's just restorative and that means no cell phones.

Kurt Dupuis:
I just think about our grandparents having this conversation. He's like, wait, you have to block off time to sit in nature and not have things in your ear, it's completely perverse to how they would probably see the world.

Steve Seid:
And the next one, reclaim friend and family time, we need to stop letting technology interfere with our most important interpersonal interactions. It's hard to ignore your phone when sitting in front of you with news alerts and text messages constantly popping up, this actually gets right to the movie. Because even when you're not actively looking at it, it's designed to give you alerts to make you look at it. So my advice is to designate areas where in an effort to facilitate better, more meaningful conversation with friends and family, personal devices simply aren't allowed. Your take? How do you handle that with your family? Do you have anything like that?

Kurt Dupuis:
The general rule is we don't have technology at the table. If there's a big football game on, there's something noteworthy, we'll have it on. We make exceptions. There's always exceptions to the rules, but generally, yeah, dinner time is sacred. Same thing with going out with friends and stuff at restaurants, it's like, keep your phone in your pocket. This is not hard.

Steve Seid:
Yeah. I'm pretty bad. If I'm sitting on the couch, relaxing, watching something with my wife and she gets up to go do something, my phone immediately goes up and I start reading. That's where I'm bad about. All right, let's get back to the last one that they put, which is keeping technology out of the bedroom. As the day turns to dusk, your brain starts to release melatonin. The accumulation of which eventually helps put you to sleep. But according to research from the National Sleep Foundation and the Mayo Clinic, blue light from smartphones, tablets, or laptops, slow that process. I did not know that. And also release cortisol, which signals your brain to become more alert. The result is less and more restless sleep. Wow. That's a big deal.

Kurt Dupuis:
So it makes your body create the exact opposite chemicals that your body needs to go to sleep. That's wild. I do not do this one I have technology in the bedroom, but I know many folks that do, but I also feel like I sleep like a baby, so I'm not particularly triggered on this one.

Steve Seid:
A problem for you. Yeah, I sleep pretty well, but I'll tell you, I failed every one of these so far. So opportunity for improvement, right?

Kurt Dupuis:
I think one of the guys says in the documentary, the question now is not whether you look at your phone first thing in the morning, it's whether you pee before or after you look at your phone, right? The phone has become so embedded into our lives, I mean, how much time do you waste in the morning just looking at your phone and mindlessly scrolling?

Steve Seid:
I've failed all of these, but I'm still a person that likes physical books. Do you use a Kindle?

Kurt Dupuis:
No, I can't get into reading on technology. I am analog in that.

Steve Seid:
Well, so that was the article with a few suggestions. Here's what I want for you all before Kurt gets into a couple of his suggestions. I want you to pick one or two of those or say, you're going to do all of them, but we want to hear from you, which one are you going to do? Email us, thewholetruth@touchstonefunds.com or hit, Kurt and I up individually and let us know which one of these you're going to start doing. We would love to see our community taking some of these steps. I think it would be a huge benefit to wellbeing moving forward. So Kurt, you have a couple of things you want to share.

Kurt Dupuis:
Well, yeah. So this is directly from The Center for Humane Technology. So you can find it at humanetech.com/takecontrol, just practical settings, practical apps to add, practical apps to remove to help take technology back. So the first one is notifications, right? These things are built to, “hey, you haven't opened Facebook in a while, let me trigger you with some notification”, turn those off so that you are going in on these websites when you want to not when they want you to.

Steve Seid:
Totally agree.

Kurt Dupuis:
The second thing is to remove toxic apps. So they give alternatives, you could remove Facebook and add an app called Signal, so you can message with friends. You can remove TikTok and then send video messages by direct text or with an app called Marco Polo. So it's almost like these slim down apps that were created by people that just want simpler technology that exists that run parallel to the apps that you are more commonly using. There's a number of helpful tools that you can also download. There's one called Flux that helps you get more sleep, removes blue light. There is an app called Moment that tracks all the time you spend. You want a real ...

Kurt Dupuis:
I did this for a month a while back tracked my usage of all these various apps, scary outcomes with that. So if you really want to dig in, it's like our PAR analysis, right? There's nowhere to hide, you see everything that you do on your phone and it's sometimes can be a bit overwhelming. Another thing I also see that's pretty popular right now is practicing mindfulness. And there's many apps on that. There's Insight Timer is one that they recommend on their website. Another big problem with all this is eliminating the outrage from your diet, right? We know that rage and anger, as they wash over you, those are emotions that a lot of this tech is built to elicit because when you're raged about something, you're more likely to spend time on these platforms and-

Steve Seid:
Oh my God, I mean, what comes to mind with that Twitter? It is a cesspool, that place. Have you ever done-

Kurt Dupuis:
I love Twitter.

Steve Seid:
I want to see what certain people have to say, especially around timely stuff like market stuff, all this or political stuff in the case of this election. Do you ever make the mistake of scrolling down and seeing the responses to that and getting down that rabbit hole and you're just like, oh man, how-

Kurt Dupuis:
You got to watch the comments.

Steve Seid:
So you said you love Twitter, how are you avoiding being just totally bothered by that? Because it's just, it's pretty horrible actually.

Kurt Dupuis:
Only go to the comments at your peril, right? Not that they're taboo, but just know what you're getting into, but I mean, you curate your own experience on Twitter by who you follow. So what I love about Twitter is that people are hilarious on Twitter. So it's the comedy, even if it's a political angle or a sports angle, a lot of sports stuff I get on Twitter. But one of the things that's suggested from the Humane Technology is an app called I Unfollow, which helps you delete toxic accounts that you have on Twitter.

Kurt Dupuis:
And there's a lot of things on this list that The Center for Humane Technology puts out there. I'll just name a couple of more that I think are really pertinent. One is follow voices you disagree with. One of the big problems with technology and social media platforms is the echo chamber that everyone discusses. So I think that's practical advice. So there's two things that I'm going to do after us having this conversation. And this is one of them, the suggestion to fully disconnect one day a week, that's going to be tough for me, but I think it's a struggle worth pursuing. And the other thing I'm doing is I'm deleting Facebook from my phone.

Steve Seid:
Nice.

Kurt Dupuis:
So I'm going to do both of those things. I haven't seen value in Facebook in quite some time, but I think those are two proactive things I can do to start taking my own technology life back.

Steve Seid:
Maybe this is the challenge to our audience. Maybe it's as we're building business plans for next year. I mean, we're sitting here at the end of 2020, so we're talking about 2021, but whenever you're listening to this podcast, maybe building into your business plan a section that talks about working more efficiently. Addressing the CC and reply alls, and I'd make this into an even bigger thing of get your email under control.

Kurt Dupuis:
One thing I was going to bring up earlier. I subscribe to the zero inbox method. So my inbox is my to-do list. It's either something that it's commentary I need to read through or something I need to respond to, otherwise you file it away.

Steve Seid:
That's great. Yeah. Get the email cleaned up, CC, reply all, get ahead of that. Recalibrating time expectations, protect that time where you're away from the office, the work-life balance. Make sure if there's communication outside of office hours, that it really is stuff that can't wait. But other than that, let's value that time off. Regular breaks, making sure your team members are doing that without just sticking their face into their cell phones. You guys can, you can commit this to each other. Friends and family time, making sure that technology is not a big part of that and keeping tech out of the bedroom. That was the things from the HBR article.

Steve Seid:
Kurt described wanting to fully disconnect one day a week, even if it's not a full disconnect for you, find the time where you're going to do it even if it's not a full day. Turning notifications off, removing toxic applications, using mindfulness apps, that's actually using technology in a way to better benefit you. And the last one is following voices that you disagree with to avoid those information ecosystems that we know potentially could limit your worldview. So that's a pretty long list Kurt, but I think that's the message to the audience is pick a few of these out and build it into your team plans. Is that a good take away?

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah. We're talking about how to limit technology to take our lives back, but I think next year we need to do some research on flipping the script, what technology actually enables you to run a better, more efficient practice to streamline communication.

Steve Seid:
Yeah, enhances your life, yeah.

Kurt Dupuis:
Yeah. So I think there's a conversation to be had around that as well.

Steve Seid:
Awesome. Thanks everyone, we're going to go to our Costanza Corner now, this is The Whole Truth, stick with us.

Kurt Dupuis:
And welcome back to the Costanza Corner where I think we've got really good news for everybody that should put everyone on a high note.

Steve Seid:
Maybe this dates the episode, I don't know, but we're going to celebrate it anyways. It is the middle of November, 2020 as we're recording this and it was just released that a vaccine for COVID-19 is about to come out via Pfizer. There's also one other therapeutic that's coming out that's equally effective, but we just want to celebrate that news. It hasn't been distributed-

Kurt Dupuis:
Still a lot of hurdles to get over.

Steve Seid:
We're still the people that get this done and Pfizer coming up huge. So I just want to celebrate that today.

Kurt Dupuis:
There's light at the end of the tunnel. We don't know how much light, how long the tunnel is. We don't have a lot of specifics around it, but we have light at the end of the tunnel.

Steve Seid:
Thanks everyone for listening. We'll see you next time.

Kurt Dupuis:
You can find The Whole Truth and subscribe for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. We'd love it if you took the time to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, it helps others find the show. And for more episodes of The Whole Truth, go to www.touchstoneinvestments.com/TheWholeTruth. That's touchstoneinvestments.com/TheWholeTruth, all one word.

IMPORTANT DISCLOSURES
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Touchstone Funds are distributed by Touchstone Securities, Inc., a registered broker-dealer and member FINRA/SIPC.