Kurt Dupuis:
Welcome to The Whole Truth where two wholesalers help financial professionals build great practices and thrive in a rapidly changing industry. We'll bring you the stories and voices from those on the front lines of this change and we'll have some fun along the way.
Steve Seid:
We're building a community of financial professionals who are growing, forward-thinking, and want to get better. Thanks for listening and contributing to the discussion.
Disclosure:
The views expressed herein are those of the participants and not those of Touchstone Investments. We are joined by Jake Willis, Regional Vice President at Touchstone Investments and Dan Allocca, Partner and Head of Digital and Integrated Marketing at Prosek, a marketing and communications firm utilized by Touchstone Securities, Inc.
Steve Seid:
And welcome, everybody, to The Whole Truth. From the Bay Area, California. I am Steve Seid.
Kurt Dupuis:
And from Atlanta, Georgia, I'm Kurt Dupuis.
Steve Seid:
All right. So big episode today, jam packed episode. We have two guests. First, we have our good friend Jake Willis, a wholesaler from Southern California. He's going to be talking to us about principles of persuasion. Just about everybody, I would think, listening to this episode is in sales in some way or another and understanding the principles around persuasion, the principles around sales, about how people make decisions, really important to hear and can really help your sales process. So we're excited to go through those with Jake.
After that, we're going to have Dan Allocca from Prosek. So let me talk about Prosek first. Prosek is a marketing consulting firm, multiple offices around the country. Dan specifically is partner and head of digital and integrated marketing practice at the firm. He's working actively with Touchstone right now, has an amazing background. He's worked with firms like TIA, Nuveen, PIMCO, Morgan Stanley and others so he's a real specialist when it comes to our industry.
So back to Jake Willis, who we're going to start off with right now. How do I describe... Well, are you 5th in California history in assists at the high school level? Is that a good way to introduce you?
Jake Willis:
Something like that. Let's call it Top 15 at this point. I don't know but-
Steve Seid:
Are you lying to me about the number of assists you had? Is that how you got-
Kurt Dupuis:
He checks it daily.
Steve Seid:
He knows. It's just Jason Kidd, a couple people than you, right? That's the deal?
Jake Willis:
Which basically means I can't shoot.
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Kurt Dupuis:
I was going to say, "How did you jumper look?"
Jake Willis:
That's what it means, it's because I can't shoot.
Steve Seid:
In the one horse game I played with him, I beat him. Although several months later, maybe years later, he claimed he let me win so that's what we're dealing with right now.
Jake Willis:
By the way, did you know he had a jump shot, Kurt?
Kurt Dupuis:
Who?
Jake Willis:
You. Did Kurt know that Steve has a jump shot?
Kurt Dupuis:
So we've talked about this and I always just am rude to Seid because I haven't known him to be athletic. But apparently, he played high school baseball and apparently, he's got a jump shot now so I'm continuously surprised by Seid’s athleticism.
Jake Willis:
I was surprised too. Not going to lie.
Kurt Dupuis:
I've never seen it in action though. So until I see it though, I'm not sure I'll actually believe it.
Steve Seid:
You know what that means? You look horrible as a human being. I can't believe you can handle athletics. That's what you guys are both saying to me right now.
Kurt Dupuis:
I mean, indirectly.
Jake Willis:
Kind of.
Steve Seid:
Yeah. That's fair. Anyways, to our show. So talk about these principles of persuasion. Where did they come from? Why is it an important topic?
Jake Willis:
Yeah. So I would say first off, I've always been a big psychology person. Love learning about people, what makes them tick, why they do the things they do. And then as I've gotten older, I feel like in business it's transitioned into the psychology of sales. I don't know if you guys do this but do you guys ever... If you're buying something, you're out in a restaurant and you have a really good experience, for me, I go, "What made me want to buy that?" and, "Did anybody do anything to trigger that sale?" Do you guys do that at all? Do you notice, basically, good sales people?
Steve Seid:
100%. Just the restaurant example, although there's numerous. You ever walk into a restaurant, you could tell right away that they just don't care at all about your business whatsoever? I mean, I see it from the negative side. But also, good service is amazing. The people that actually care about their jobs. It seems to stand out these days, to me.
Jake Willis:
Getting into the heads of advisors or whatever you're selling, really, I think can be as important. Why are they buying? What are the reasons they buy? So my old national sales manager, he was a naval interrogator, so he-
Kurt Dupuis:
Ohh.
Jake Willis:
Yeah. By the way, it made for interesting interviews.
Kurt Dupuis:
I'm sure.
Jake Willis:
So he introduced this to the sales group, it was a book written by Robert Cialdini and it's really about six different ways, essentially, to persuade people to buy and the psychology behind it.
Kurt Dupuis:
So it's funny, my wife and I have always had this back and forth because she's always... I mean, we've been married for 10 years but she's like, "I hate sales people," and I'm like, "Well, that's a little hurtful because you didn't realize we're married." But when this Daniel Pink book came out... God, blank on the name of it, but it basically said everybody's in sales, everyone's trying to get their own outcomes, and she's a pharmacist, a hospital setting. There's the same thing. She's trying to help people out to gain favor so that they know she's smart and competent. Same thing with kids. We want our kids to like us and we're persuading our kids as well as our parents. Everybody's in sales. So I mean, whether or not you work in this industry or not, the art of persuasion is evergreen.
Steve Seid:
Are you saying that I'm failing at sales with my kid because my kid seems to not... Lately, MJ, she seems to not like me that much so you're saying I'm not getting these principles of persuasion. Is that what you're implying?
Kurt Dupuis:
I mean, kids have so many phases. I'm not going to pretend to know what phase you're in.
Jake Willis:
Well, you know what?
Kurt Dupuis:
Those little suckers could turn on a dime.
Jake Willis:
Steve, maybe you need to try a different one of the six. Maybe you're trying-
Kurt Dupuis:
There you go.
Jake Willis:
One or two of them.
Steve Seid:
Let's get into those principles. Hit us.
Jake Willis:
All right. The first one, maybe the biggest one is the principle of reciprocity. People are wired, humans are wired, that if somebody does something for you, you want to do something back for them. It's interesting. He talks about the reason behind that which is... It's, I think, an interesting discussion. He says because most people don't want to feel indebted to others, if someone's done something maybe out of their way, provided value, you don't want to feel like you owe them. Do you guys have that same feeling when someone does something for you?
Kurt Dupuis:
You know that scene in The Office with Andy and Dwight when they're giving gifts?
Steve Seid:
Right. Yeah.
Kurt Dupuis:
And they don't wait three seconds before returning the favor. I'm sorry. That's what I immediately think of.
Jake Willis:
Maybe you're out hosting an event or whatever and all advisors that'll be like, "No, no, no. You don't have to buy my drink or dinner," because clearly they don't maybe have any intention of doing business.
Kurt Dupuis:
They're getting in front of that.
Jake Willis:
If you can help them grow their business, if you can help them be more efficient, that probably holds more weight, I think, in the reciprocity game than probably a happy hour or a game.
Steve Seid:
I'm going to change this towards the financial professional perspective. I mean, just add value. Just add value. Don't think about it. Just before you even worry about charging a fee. I know that seems obvious but it's worth saying.
Jake Willis:
So that's reciprocity. So the second one is commitment and he says that people want their beliefs to be consistent with their values. You're going to do what you say, that you're going to stand by your word. I think some of the feedback as wholesalers we get is we don't do enough of this. Making them feel important is the way I view it.
Steve Seid:
Well, what's a challenge on our side of the business is actually doing what you say you're going to do. That's a big challenge for us and…
Kurt Dupuis:
Oh yeah.
Steve Seid:
I don't think that people do that purposely. I think you're in a meeting, "Oh, we can do that. Oh, I'll get that to you. Oh, absolutely," then you're onto six other meetings and you don't do any of it or half of it or whatever.
I don't know if that's as prevalent on financial professionals but I'm going to guess that there's probably some level where things could drop off, whether it's doing what you say you're going to do or just following up or being present. For each of my opportunities, for each of my clients, I'm going to show more commitment. I'm going to guess that's something that would benefit them as well.
Jake Willis:
Absolutely. And I think you're right, Steve. I think we all do it. We get so busy, right? We're doing things and it almost comes back to segmentation too, a little bit, right? Because you probably can't have that same level of commitment if we're being real with every single engagement we have.
Steve Seid:
Well, I don't want to belabor this too much and we've talked about having too many households. This is what that affects is the commitment level, the ability to deliver the type of experience and commitment that you want to show. But sometimes people don't realize that in our side of the industry, they think wholesalers are out there and they could just call on everybody. No, we have a certain number of relationships too. We cannot be everything to everybody. There's a big universe out there. So I think it's a good principle, I think, for all parts of the industry.
Jake Willis:
Number 3, social proof. He says there's nothing like feeling validated based on what others are doing. What are other advisors doing? I mean, clearly what’s your firm think, things like that. But I get a lot of guys that are wondering what their peers are doing and I think that really stands to this principle is that as humans, I don't want to say we're a herd mentality because that's taking away from the creativity that we all have-
Steve Seid:
We are.
Jake Willis:
But we kind of are, right?
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Jake Willis:
What are other people doing? It's safer too, right?
Kurt Dupuis:
I think this is one of the superpowers of wholesalers because we work with, talk to, collaborate with, hear from so many financial professionals. I think wholesalers can add value in a lot of different ways. I think this is probably one of the most universal ways that we can like, "What are people doing out there?" If you don't have an opinion about that, you're not a very good wholesaler. But, "What are people doing for marketing? How are people growing their business? How are they scaling?", if you don't have thoughts around that, you're probably not a very good wholesaler but that's a great value.
Jake Willis:
One of the challenges I think in our industry as well, versus maybe some other industries, is that, really, the big question everyone's asking is what's going to happen next? Where's the market going? And without a crystal ball, nobody knows that but we clearly need to have opinions and people want to hear about what other people are doing.
Steve Seid:
What immediately popped to my head was niches as you guys were both talking. Kurt, it's just what you said, we're in this unique position because we talk to all these financial professionals. Well, if you've got a niche and your niche is dentists, I'm making it up, and you're talking to dentists all day, you probably could be sharing what's going on in the world of dentistry.
What I'm trying to figure out in my head and work through is the general practitioner, financial professional, how they can use this principle in their business today. That's what I'm trying to work out and I think it's maybe just sharing what other clients broadly are doing. But I don't know, it seems a lot more powerful if you have a niche.
Kurt Dupuis:
The best content you could produce, the questions that clients are asking and the problems that you're solving for them. Because chances are, other folks are dealing with that too. To me, that's the easiest way to apply that.
Steve Seid:
That's the crux of it. Yeah.
Jake Willis:
Moving on to Number 4, it's authority. Basically, he says that... It's funny. The tagline says, "You will obey me." In our industry, I think of Dr. David Kelly, people like that, that when they talk, people listen. I have a little bit of a background because my brother's at JP Morgan also, is the flows tend to go in directions of firms that have these heads that really have a lot of weight in our industry. I think for advisors, that's an easy one with their clients is that they have a view of what they're trying to do, that they're not wishy-washy with how they're talking to clients.
Steve Seid:
You could definitely do that in a meeting one-on-one, show your expertise, but I think there is some value in doing other things where people can hear you before they even get in a meeting. Whether that's recording videos or podcasts or having a good website, all the marketing stuff that establish you as a thought leader, I think that matters. That's the first thing I thought of.
Jake Willis:
Yeah. I think it almost ties into your next guest, right? Talking about marketing, I think those two go together really well, marketing and having a voice and authority. Because you don't just get it, it takes time and I do think marketing is a big part of it. And I think in our own individual territories though, that's our job as wholesalers is getting that voice and then having some authority, right? Hey, what would you do? Would you use the mid cap or would you go large cap right now?
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Jake Willis:
And again, we don't live in a crystal ball world but having an opinion and being authoritative about it does work.
Steve Seid:
Well, you know what's interesting about that is so many wholesalers that I've observed actually shy away from that. They just want to nod the head exactly what the financial professional is telling them. "Oh yeah, I agree with you. Oh yeah, 100%," and then they feed them something-
Kurt Dupuis:
That's funny because-
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Kurt Dupuis:
I love mentally sparring with people-
Steve Seid:
Me too. I am so-
Kurt Dupuis:
Even if I don't believe it, that's Point... Counterpoint-
Steve Seid:
That's totally different. So you'll just do it for no reason, even if you don't believe it? That's just hilarious.
Kurt Dupuis:
Well, I mean, it's the same with politics, right? So few people know my actual politics because I just like taking the other side of stuff because that's how you learn but that's a whole other conversation.
Steve Seid:
Well, that's fun-
Jake Willis:
Kurt, I agree. I agree. And even, Steve, we've had a couple where I tell you I play a little devil's advocate just to spice it up.
Steve Seid:
Yeah. And I don't shy away from that at all, I don't think my opinion or my viewpoint is the only one. And I think if you're a financial professional and you have someone who's just going to come in and nod their head, I mean, what kind of value are you getting out of that? I mean-
Jake Willis:
Right.
Kurt Dupuis:
Got to have an opinion.
Jake Willis:
Okay. Principle Number 5. To me, this is probably one of the bigger ones like reciprocity and it says liking. And it says, the more you like someone, the more you'll be persuaded by them. My thoughts on this one, it's always been to try to find a commonality with an advisor and I think number one, that starts with listening.
Steve Seid:
Yes.
Jake Willis:
You hear a lot of sales things about being an active listener and I think we all try to do it and then a lot of times we get into meetings and I do it myself, we all do it. You start getting going on something, whether it's a product or even about yourself, and then you're talking more than the advisor and you really didn't get enough information.
Kurt Dupuis:
Have you ever been to a conference and you meet another wholesaler and you're like, "So..." I mean, a big part of being a wholesaler is being likable, right? Know, like, and trust. And you talk to somebody for two minutes and you're like, "This person is awful. How do they do this job?" Financial professionals are different. But yeah, you would know it when you see it but you really know it in its absence.
Steve Seid:
Likeability is complex and I certainly don't have all the answers. I think you two are both a lot more likable than I am but one of the things that... Your point of the listening and not constantly talking, I think most financial professionals listening to this right now probably have heard that a million times but it's one of those things that's worth hearing a million times. It's worth saying like, "What can I do in my client reviews? What can I do in my prospect meetings that opens the person up more that allows them to speak more?"
Jake Willis:
And then, it's remembering. I had a master spreadsheet of advisors, kids' names, colleges-
Steve Seid:
Huge.
Jake Willis:
Stuff they do, right?
Steve Seid:
Huge.
Jake Willis:
That kind of stuff, to me, probably is the most impactful. I'll give you a quick story just because it was recent. My guy in San Diego who Steve knows and met him, spent a whole day with him, great guy, was talking about his kids a lot. His kid plays baseball and his kid was in a home run derby, I think, the following week.
So I called him that next week and the first thing I said, "Hey, how'd Jake do in his home run derby?" and he lit up. He's like, "He won. He got super excited," and then the conversation after that was so easy because he felt like I did care which I did. But the fact that I remembered his kid's name, that he was going to be in the home run derby, immediately made that conversation a lot easier and it's being genuine about it too. I think that's the one thing in our business is if you actually do care, they'll be able to feel it.
Steve Seid:
Yeah. The fact that you knew his first name, I think, is big. Just thinking back to myself, I would've probably said like, "Well, how was your son's home run derby?" The name, I wouldn't have even remembered the name so that's awesome that you do that. I think the other thing where I found this really powerful and it hit me was the immediate follow-up is one thing. If you can remember that stuff over time, that's amazing. When you meet that guy next year, "Hey, how's Jake doing? Is he still playing ball?" It's one of those things I wish I would be better at.
Jake Willis:
When somebody remembers something about you and your personal life, it does feel good, right?
Steve Seid:
Yeah. It really does.
Jake Willis:
It's one of those things that it's hard to say, that that's not impactful. To me, like I said, that's probably Sales 101 right there is finding ways to be likable, being likable. And then, the last one is scarcity. When you believe something is in short supply, you want it more. I think in life, this is absolutely a principle of persuasion. I would even tell you in the dating world, absolutely-
Steve Seid:
So funny. I was just going to say, "You're talking about your dating Jake?"
Jake Willis:
Right. But it's true, right? When you're a little bit less available…
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Jake Willis:
… you're-
Kurt Dupuis:
Is the word now thirsty? Is that the word the kids are using? When you come off too thirsty?
Jake Willis:
When you come off too thirsty. It's true though, right? Because you just go, "Hmmm. That person's a little bit too available," or, "I can have a meeting with them whenever I want."
Kurt Dupuis:
That drips of being needy.
Jake Willis:
Desperation.
Steve Seid:
I absolutely love this one. It is so obvious to me when sales people of any shape or form are too desperate for the sale and when those that just value themselves and are not living and dying by every sale. This gets back to that one principle we talked with, with a guest of ours, Elise Archer, abundant selling versus... I mean, when you're not coming off with that desperation and you're just confident, "Hey, listen, I've got something really great and valuable to offer. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, I'm going to help someone else." I mean, I don't know. I think that's huge.
Jake Willis:
You get in these periods where maybe sales aren't as great and you're scratching and clawing. But that energy you're projecting…
Steve Sied:
Yeah.
Jake Willis:
…it doesn't help you. I'll just say that. It does not help you. But when you're kind of comfortable and again, it's not always based on how well you're doing but I've had periods in my time where things are going well, I couldn't be more comfortable in my own skin and it radiates, right? And people are drawn to it.
Steve Seid:
Yeah. There's a hockey reference, gripping the stick too tight. You have pretty good meetings that day after the $10 million win comes in the morning, right? There's just an energy there. There's a flow there. All right. So that was great, six principles of persuasion. I could say I've heard things like that throughout my career. I think it's one of those things you want to keep hearing from time to time. Even though I heard these principles of persuasion in 2023, I think they'd be useful to hear them again in 2024 and 2025. It's things we want to revisit. So Jake, thank you so much for coming on and walking through all that. We definitely appreciate it.
Jake Willis:
You're definitely welcome.
Steve Seid:
Right now, we're going to transition to our Segment 2 with Dan from Prosek. This is The Whole Truth. Stick with us.
All right. Well, welcome to our conversation with Daniel Allocca from Prosek. We've got a professional marketing person on the show which is very exciting because Kurt, I don't think you or I view ourselves as good at marketing or professional in any way. Maybe you do. I don't know.
Kurt Dupuis:
No, I proudly wear the badge of being unprofessional at marketing.
Steve Seid:
So Daniel, we need you. So thank you for being on the show.
Dan Allocca:
I don't know how much I'm going to contribute but thanks for having me.
Steve Seid:
You work for an organization called Prosek which we are doing a lot of work with. Let's start with an overview of that organization.
Dan Allocca:
Yeah. So Prosek's a integrated marketing communications firm. We focus on financial services so we work with a lot of investment managers, asset managers, hedge funds, private equity firms, and the like and we really pride ourselves on being good business partners and helping businesses meet outcomes. So that's us in a nutshell.
Steve Seid:
How did you get in this business and end up at Prosek?
Dan Allocca:
I started my financial career, I worked in Morgan Stanley in the wealth management division and did a number of things there in the corporate office and in marketing and got into digital when... This makes me feel old now but when the internet was really coming of age and Google was becoming a thing and we were going from people having BlackBerrys in their pockets and that whole thing. I just fell in love with it. So I worked at Morgan Stanley, worked at PIMCO and Nuveen and I decided I really wanted to put my skills to work as a consultant and helping as many brands as I could with marketing.
Kurt Dupuis:
Could you give us some insight, very broad strokes, what are you working on as it pertains to, let's call it digital marketing today, and how has that changed not 20, 30 years ago, but maybe in the last 5 years, how that's changed?
Dan Allocca:
Yeah. I think what the big change is digital marketing's just become marketing. The two things are almost synonymous. There's no print department at a company for a reason and a lot of companies don't have a digital department anymore either for the same reason. It's one more tool in the toolbox that helps us deliver client outcomes, that helps us deliver better service.
Kurt Dupuis:
Gotcha. As it pertains to our audience, where's the biggest gap? We see what a lot of our clients are doing... I think there's a bunch of them but I don't really have a sense of how to grade or determine magnitude for how big a gap is with financial professionals. Can you illuminate that for us?
Dan Allocca:
Yeah. I mean, I think the best financial professionals have realized marketing's gone from a megaphone where you tell everybody what you want to say to you've got to have a microphone too and listen. And what I mean by that is things like social media have changed the game forever. So now, if you're an advisor, you can build a community online, you can talk about the things that you're interested in that you think your customers or your potential clients might be interested in and you can give them a voice in that conversation too and learn from them. Your ability to build community which is obviously central to being a successful financial professional is now online. And that, to me, is what changed the game significantly. It doesn't have to feel like marketing as much anymore. It can feel more like content and ideas and interests and I think that's the big, big shift.
Steve Seid:
So that's interesting. So you're seeing financial professionals have success with social media, is that a fair statement?
Dan Allocca:
Definitely.
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Dan Allocca:
And I think its success with realistic expectations. So there's not going to be... I mean, it maybe happens sometimes, right? But it's not going to be like you post a social media post and ten people are going to call you and want to do business with you. I think that's unrealistic. It's more about embracing the long sales cycle that it is to be a financial professional, realizing that you've got to become a member of the community or communities that you're in and using social media as one more place to do that. Over time, people feeling like they get to know you before they even meet you or they've met you and then they go online and get a better feel for you. I think that's the big role that social media plays is it's keeping someone connected with you for a longer period of time over what could be years.
Steve Seid:
Yeah. It's interesting to hear you speak that way about appropriate expectations and the role of it and the speed of it. Because I often think sometimes when I'm having conversations you're like, "Well, I went on these social media platforms, I've tried it for a little while, I haven't really seen any..." And it's the short term like, "How do I generate leads right away?" Whereas, that's not realistic expectation-
Kurt Dupuis:
But they just repost the firm stuff, right?
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Kurt Dupuis:
The firm puts something out, I post it on LinkedIn, and I expect stuff to happen. It's like one of my favorite follow-up questions with people that say they're doing social. Its like, "Well, what's the strategy for engaging with your post?" Somebody says, "Hey, this is great," or somebody asks a question and 90% of the time, even if you're just repurposing the company stuff, there's no engagement online either which tells me that we're in the early innings of this. Is that fair?
Dan Allocca:
I think that's right. I also think a lot of people are just using it incorrectly. When we talk about social media especially, if you choose to follow someone or a company or whatever it might be, there's that word there. You chose to follow that person. And I think sometimes the person creating the social media post forgets that the burden's on you a little bit to create content and information that's interesting…
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Dan Allocca:
…to the people who made that choice to be a part of your life. They owe you nothing.
Steve Seid:
Right.
Dan Allocca:
And I think sometimes having that mindset of am I just telling everybody what I want them to hear so that they'll do business with me or am I being thoughtful and creating things that add to their lives and then over time they're going to want to be more a part of my life? It's not like putting an ad in the Wall Street Journal. It's a different transaction.
Steve Seid:
Any other recommendations that you have, social media or otherwise, around marketing and financial professionals?
Dan Allocca:
Yes. I think financial professionals, brands, marketing, sales, it almost doesn't even matter the industry you're in. You have to look at yourself from outside of yourself and you have to ask yourself really hard questions. So I'm a financial professional in a big city center, there's only so many potential clients. So when that person wakes up in the morning and is like, "You know what? Today's the day I'm going to go and build a relationship with somebody. Why should it be you?" and if your answer is, "Because I'm good at financial advice," or, "I'm high integrity," or... That's not enough.
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Dan Allocca:
So is everybody else and chances are they're better at those things than maybe even you are.
So I think sitting down and thinking about truly why would someone hire you is the most important question to nail. Then everything else becomes easy because you know why you exist in the marketplace. Then you start to make content that supports why, you start to host events that tie to your why. It can't just be another event. It has to be an event that is on brand for you personally. And I think that's where most businesses struggle and most financial professionals struggle is what makes them different from the person quite literally next door in their branch and probably an elevator ride down at a different firm in another branch.
Steve Seid:
When you're talking to an organization and they really aren't able to define that, does your firm help them work through it? Is there other resources that you send them to help bring that through? What's that conversation like for firms and individuals that are struggling with that?
Dan Allocca:
There's a lot of frameworks you can use. So one of them is this framework of why, how, what. There's a guy named Simon Sinek that put that out and I think it's a good way to think about brand framework. When you're thinking about yourself, you start with why. Why do you exist in the marketplace? What's your purpose in that marketplace? And by the way, purpose does not have to mean pie in the sky, big idea thing. It can just be that you feel like you bring a very practical purpose to the marketplace.
I think that how piece is so important too. So how you do business. What's your client experience? What's it feel like to walk in the door at your office, deal with your staff? What's the follow-up look like? All those process steps are part of marketing too…
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Dan Allocca:
…because that's what's going to drive your referral network. I think exactly zero people will leave and say, "My advisor got me 7.2% and yours got you 7.1 so mine's better." It's more like I feel like I get good advice. I feel like I'm listened to. I feel like I'm followed up with. Those are all the things that make the difference so that how is really important.
But what is the easiest? Every advisor, ultimately financial professional, doing similar things. I think it's how they do them that make them stand out. Yes, we do help with certain organizations and I think it's a little bit of you have to do the homework and we can give you the guidance but we can't answer that one for you.
Steve Seid:
Yeah. That makes total sense.
Kurt Dupuis:
This is a thing that keeps coming up is it's your brand differentiation. We talk about we had the benefit of working in a high margin industry where people haven't prioritized that. But as the structure gets flattened over the years, how important that is. So Simon Sinek's a great place to start, that's what we should start telling people when they talk about, "Well, how do I build my own brand?" It's like just go read a book because that's going to give you way more than you already have. That should be our go-to.
Dan Allocca:
For sure.
Steve Seid:
I'm going to apologize to anyone listening, wirehouse folks, I don't mean anything negative by this question. In fact, the majority of my clients are wirehouse so please understand this. But I'm interested in what you're seeing in marketing and social media, etc., in wirehouses versus non-wirehouses. From the outside looking in, it seems like the folks and the financial professionals that are doing marketing really well seem to be more independent because they have a little bit more freedom. One, is that your observation? And two, how would you make recommendations to both pools? Would it be different or the same?
Dan Allocca:
Yeah. I think it's just like tale of two cities. So the big firms are successful because they've built great brands and they hire great people and they train them well and they have the platforms in place to enable success. And I think a lot of the trust factors that an advisor or a professional might have to overcome are overcome by the fact that someone's working at a big firm, right? They work at X, Y, Z firm, therefore they must be good and trustworthy and vetted. So I think they don't have to market as much as a result.
And I think if you're an independent and you're out there and you've hung your own shingle, you have none of that. What you have are the clients you've developed and built who know you well and your reputation in the community which obviously are crucial. But outside of that circle, probably no one's heard of you and I think because of that, you have to do a lot harder work to stand out. I think that's probably the big difference.
Steve Seid:
So the independents and the RIAs1, they have more freedom but they also have a higher burden or a hill to climb. So in that context, the fact that someone at a wirehouse may not have to market as much just because they have the brand. So does the fact that they're restricted may not matter that much or do you still challenge those wirehouse advisors to really be creative within that context?
Dan Allocca:
It's both a strength and a weakness to be working in an organization that has a great big brand that you have little control over. You have to, as an advisor in a big wirehouse, adopt the brand that you're working within. And that does come with restrictions and there's only so much you can do and I think that's always someone needs to think about.
That said, I think differentiation at a local level is way more important because that's where advisory is happening. You're working in a city, in a community, and you have to find a way to stand out there, not just against advisors at other firms but against the advisors in your own office. So why is someone going to hire you and not the person next door is a question I think you have to ask yourself.
I think the ones that do it really well, irrespective of what kind of structure they work in, they're the ones that sit down and figure out, "What's my marketing plan going to be? What am I really passionate about outside of finance and how do I, over a long period of time, build a community that people are going to want to engage with?" So some people are really into cars. They're car guys, they go to the car shows, they genuinely become friends with a network of people who also happen to maybe doing well in their lives and they're a part of the community and contributing to it, not just taking from it. And that, to me, is crucial for any kind of relationship-based, trust-based sales model. I think a lot of sales people fail trying to sell before they build a relationship.
Kurt Dupuis:
I've told people that have zero marketing plans, "Find something you enjoy doing and spending money on. Just go do that. Go spend the time, go spend the money, and you're going to bump into dollars and find business."
Dan Allocca:
Exactly.
Steve Seid:
We had talked a little bit earlier about differentiation. Let's talk about asset managers a little bit which I think struggle with some of the same things and maybe we could use Touchstone as a case study. So you're working with us now and you're allowed to be honest, we're not... What do you think we're doing well from a strength and marketing perspective? Where were our weaknesses and what do you see from other asset managers? Is it a difference asset management-wise relative to financial professionals?
Dan Allocca:
Definitely. I think you guys have a lot of strengths and the biggest strength to me was the market position is extremely clear. So Distinctively Active, not just a slogan, backed by product, backed by process, backed by how you pick managers. Everything's symbiotic with what you stand for. And if you think about the asset management marketplace as a barbell, on each side you have a weight and in the middle, a thin bar. I think you guys are on the left end of that barbell. So you're a smaller manager, highly focused, good at active management, and you've made that choice even with the ETF launches you've done, right? That's the lane you've chosen and you're sticking with it.
I think on the other side of that barbell and asset management on the right side, you've got the big supermarket asset managers, the multi-trillion dollar managers who've made a choice to be everything to everybody but be good at it, right? They got really good at marketing and distribution and wholesaling and they've built infrastructure to be big. They're like an amazon.com kind of model. I think everything in the middle is at risk for surviving long-term…
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Dan Allocca:
…because they're neither. They can't charge the premiums that are worth it at the boutique level, they're not good enough at something to command a premium, and they're not big enough to survive on scale. So they sort of aren't relevant anymore. And I think they're struggling not because they can't identify differentiations because they actually don't have it. And I think that's a problem that a lot of the mid-size asset managers do have today. There's too many choices.
Kurt Dupuis:
That's a precursor question is you have to have differentiation in order to identify it at some point, right?
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Dan Allocca:
Yeah.
Kurt Dupuis:
You have to be different to eventually identify it.
Dan Allocca:
Definitely.
Kurt Dupuis:
We talked about social a little bit but as far as mediums that you've seen financial professionals have success in, I won't shoehorn an analogy in but can you tell us a platform that is more or less successful, things people should gravitate towards, or completely avoid? Can you give any thoughts there?
Dan Allocca:
Definitely. I mean, “Search” is really important for most advisors, right? So paid search, someone's looking for the kind of service that you offer, you want to make sure that you show up. So if someone's sitting in Boca Raton, Florida and says, "Best wealth managers near me," that kind of a thing, you really want to have a strategy to show up in those moments. Because that's clearly a real point of sale opportunity that if you aren't set up for, you will miss out to the next person. And I think even in a business that's so referral based like financial professionals, someone's always going to do that extra layer of due diligence in search and see what else is out there. So again, you want to make sure you show up there.
Social media, to me, is the next and very important piece for two reasons. One is your ability to tell your story. You can't do that in a search result. And at the end of the day, you are selling a story. You're selling yourself, you're selling your personality and what you're good at and why you exist in the marketplace. And if you do your social media right, I think it can be a really powerful way to cast a wider net. And it can also be a place where your current clients are liking or commenting and then their networks will see the sort of work that you're doing. In a way, it's another client saying, "Yeah. This is a good person. I'm liking what they're saying," and their network sees that. So I think that's incredibly powerful too.
For most advisors, doing anything bigger usually doesn't make sense. You see a lot of good money thrown after bad, buying big print articles in local lifestyle publications, that kind of thing. I don't know that has the same effect as some of these other channels do. Your money's probably better spent in organizing really good events, in conferences, education, that kind of a thing where you're adding value.
Kurt Dupuis:
If you could put your futuristic hat on, what do you see coming down the pike as changing with what we do in marketing/digital marketing, we'll keep them separate for now, over the next few years?
Dan Allocca:
I think the rise of expectations with digital, how we all interact with the world, how we expect information immediately, and access to information immediately will, and it already has, but I think will, in time, change even more the relationship you have with an advisor and how you expect to interact with them. So I think digital becomes another way to get in touch with and stay current with your advisor. And it doesn't just mean through conversation and text, it also means through information sharing, customized content, customized statements. I think all those sorts of things are inevitable and coming.
Steve Seid:
So is there anything that financial professionals need to do to prepare for that kind of new future?
Dan Allocca:
I think if you're in a wirehouse, there are a lot of people who are really good at that, thinking about it and…
Steve Seid:
Yeah.
Dan Allocca:
…helping you prepare for it, so I would definitely take the advice that's going on inside of those places. If you're a little more independent and you're creating your own technology future, I think staying current is very important and recognizing that you're in a marketplace that's shifting. You're obviously competing with other professionals, advisors, but you're also competing with other forms of digital advice and just making sure you know what's going on, I think is the number one most important thing.
I think very related to that is the big mistake of chasing shiny objects. So just because something new comes out, doesn't mean you need it, doesn't mean you should go after it. Because the person next door is using it, doesn't mean you should. And that's where being so grounded in your differentiation is so important because if you know why you exist and you know how you want to do business and you know the value that you bring, you know whether or not that tool is going to accelerate that.
So if you're a financial professional and you've got 100 clients and they all get white glove service and you visit them in person four times a year, if that's your business, technology's probably going to hurt you in many ways more than help you. But if you're building a scale business and it's 3- 4,000 clients and 3000 of them you can't invest a lot of time into, then obviously technology becomes an enabler. So I think just always thinking about how it helps your purpose is really important.
Steve Seid:
Daniel, really appreciate you coming on the show, A, and also helping Touchstone get better at marketing because we got to get our brand out there. We got to continue to grow as well. So really appreciate the work that you do with us.
Dan Allocca:
Yeah. Thank you. It's been great. You have a great team, great CEO, great leadership, people who are passionate about what you do and it's been a pleasure to be a partner to you so thank you.
Steve Seid:
Excellent. We're going to transition to our Costanza Corner. This is The Whole Truth. Stick with us
Kurt Dupuis:
And welcome back to the Costanza Corner where we like to end the show on a high note. Steve, you're up.
Steve Seid:
Well, thank you to our friend Jake for hanging around as well. I think I've got a good one. I'm going to give you a Costanza Corner-
Kurt Dupuis:
I'll be the judge of that.
Steve Seid:
That's true. I'm going to give you a Costanza Corner Part 2. So this is a saga through multiple Costanza Corners. So where I left you a couple of weeks ago, I had come home from my 10-year anniversary in French Polynesia and I had taken a dog by the name of Rango from Rangiroa off of a remote island back to the island of Tahiti, found a vet to host and treat the dog for 30 days-
Kurt Dupuis:
That spoke no English.
Steve Seid:
Spoke no English and my French is not good as you'll recall. And so when I last left you, he was at the vet in Tahiti and my wife was about to fly out. We didn't know how hard it was going to be to get in the country or whatever. We were trying to get all the shots and the vet records and everything. How do you import a dog? And I brought this back up because after I did that Costanza Corner, so many people reached out and said, "How'd the dog do?" Like, "Where are you with the dog? Tell us how the story ends." So that's why I'm bringing it back up. Turns out, it was pretty easy. Pretty easy.
Kurt Dupuis:
It's such a masterclass by your wife getting two trips to French Polynesia. I applaud.
Steve Seid:
Well, you'd think that it would be good to have your wife go to Tahiti twice. But when she's only going back for one night, that's a different story and-
Kurt Dupuis:
Oh gosh. Why would you only go back for one night?
Steve Seid:
She didn't have the opportunity to take an extended vacation the second time-
Kurt Dupuis:
But two nights? Not even two?
Steve Seid:
You know what, man? She had one purpose... My wife's an angel, by the way. Let me just tell you. She's a trooper. Her whole worry was I got to get this dog, I got to sneak it into a hotel. No hotels out there allow dogs. So she's-
Kurt Dupuis:
Not Tahiti. Yeah.
Steve Seid:
Yeah. She's smuggling a dog into a hotel and I got to figure out how to get this dog on a plane. She had to go through Los Angeles, not San Francisco. Because the only airline that would take her goes to LA, not San Francisco like a dog underneath the plane, right? So my wife's... She's in knots. It's not like she would've been able to sit on the beach for two days.
Kurt Dupuis:
That's fair.
Steve Seid:
You know what I mean?
Kurt Dupuis:
That's fair.
Jake Willis:
Steve, I assume it's not a Great Dane.
Steve Seid:
It's not a Great Dane. It's a smaller dog. The truth is, when we were on the island, Rango's probably 25 pounds. He's like a small little mutt. We would've loved to take a bigger dog but there was no chance we would have a carrier to be able to take a big dog and this one was the one that stuck out to us. So no, it was not a Great Dane. It was a smaller dog. So anyway, so that's why she didn't stay there multiple days. So she basically came, overnight one day, back on a plane. So she's all worried about going through customs. Really, they looked at it for about a second and a half.
Kurt Dupuis:
Oh, good.
Steve Seid:
Which by the way, have we figured out, is customs a scam? Can I ask you guys this question? Is there any rhyme or reason to what happens when you go through customs?
Kurt Dupuis:
No, but it's the randomization that makes it fearful, right? Because if you are doing something bad, you just never know.
Jake Willis:
Steve, are you-
Kurt Dupuis:
If you aren't conscious, nothing to worry about.
Jake Willis:
Yeah. Steve, are you saying you can have bad intentions and it's pretty easy to get through? Is that-
Steve Seid:
I guess what I would say is I've gone through customs a few different times and they always ask you these random questions. And sometimes they're like, "Well, who are you going to see?" like if I go to... I was in Amsterdam this year, "Who are you going to see?" "Well, I'm here to see my friend Mike." "Well, where does Mike live?" "He lives in Amsterdam." "Where does he live in Amsterdam?" "I don't know where he lives in Amsterdam. I don't know Amsterdam..." They ask you these questions. Am I going to answer them wrong? I don't even know. Is it just based on their answers they would, "This guy seems suspicious."? Is that what you're saying, Jake? If you seem suspicious, they will take you somewhere? I don't get it.
Jake Willis:
No, it's... It is a good question too because we know the lines are long, right? So it's like how much vetting can you do when there's 70,000 people waiting behind you to get through the customs? Yeah.
Steve Seid:
Customs, I'm calling you out. It's a scam. Okay. You know what's going to happen now?
Jake Willis:
The next time you go through-
Steve Seid:
Listen-
Jake Willis:
Yeah. The next time you go through, you're going to get... Yeah.
Steve Seid:
That's exactly what happened. I was about to say, the podcast reach, I'm not sure is to customs but I feel like somehow they're going to get it after that-
Kurt Dupuis:
That bad juju you're putting out is.
Steve Seid:
Yeah. That's right. But no, the US customs, very kind to my wife, looked at the paperwork, easy to easy-peasy. So our Rango-
Kurt Dupuis:
Rango is at home.
Steve Seid:
Rango is at home. He made it. He's here.
Kurt Dupuis:
He's adjusting?
Steve Seid:
Adjusting just fine.
Kurt Dupuis:
Is getting used to all the other animals, MJ? All good?
Steve Seid:
Happy as anything. Loves our other dogs. He's a great little dude. He's still a little skittish and something really cool about it... It's not really cool but it made us feel even better. So we took him to our vet. And the vet, he had skin issues, a lot of those were treated, whatever, but he actually found heartworm. So I'm happy that had we not taken him, he probably wasn't going to live another couple of months so I feel extra good about-
Kurt Dupuis:
Oh, nice.
Steve Seid:
About little Rango.
Kurt Dupuis:
Hell of a high note there, Seid. Well done.
Steve Seid:
Thanks everybody for listening. Thanks Jake for coming on both segments. We'll see you next time.
Kurt Dupuis:
Thank you, all.
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1 RIA is an acronym for Registered Investment Advisor
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